Job interviews can make for some of the most awkward interactions humanly possible.

“It’s such a false scenario, right? Interviewing’s weird,” said Patty McCord, former Chief Talent Officer at Netflix and contributor to the Harvard Business Review. “But you want to get the chance to have an authentic conversation with somebody.”

If hiring managers don’t know what they’re doing, the process can be especially painful for applicants, and in the end, disastrous for companies. And McCord says, most large organizations don’t do it well.

Listen to host Charlie Herman probe McCord for her strategies for interviewing and suggestions for the ways companies in Silicon Valley might make their hiring practices more inclusive.